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	<title>Comments on: Patterns seen in the qEEG and their indicated interventions</title>
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	<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/</link>
	<description>Quantitative Electroencephalography (qEEG): Information &#38; Discussion</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: VanDeusen</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>VanDeusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Jay,
I&#039;ve just started working with a blind psychologist--lost his sight through a series of operations for glaucoma around the age of 14, so there are some trauma issues as well. He says he sees a sensation of light with eyes open, but no details or images. I&#039;m interested in what you would expect to see vis-a-vis alpha in such a case.  He shows high amplitudes of 6-8 Hz eyes-open and eyes-closed which drop significantly at task in the parietals.  Centrals and Frontals also show dominance in that band, but it doesn&#039;t change much at task. In the 8-10 and 10-12 bands he shows little activity and no typical alpha activation with eyes closed.  Any special suggestions relative to training someone who is blind (other than not to count much on visual feedback)?
Thanks,
Pete</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,<br />
I&#8217;ve just started working with a blind psychologist&#8211;lost his sight through a series of operations for glaucoma around the age of 14, so there are some trauma issues as well. He says he sees a sensation of light with eyes open, but no details or images. I&#8217;m interested in what you would expect to see vis-a-vis alpha in such a case.  He shows high amplitudes of 6-8 Hz eyes-open and eyes-closed which drop significantly at task in the parietals.  Centrals and Frontals also show dominance in that band, but it doesn&#8217;t change much at task. In the 8-10 and 10-12 bands he shows little activity and no typical alpha activation with eyes closed.  Any special suggestions relative to training someone who is blind (other than not to count much on visual feedback)?<br />
Thanks,<br />
Pete</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jay Gunkelman</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Gunkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Pete,

My 2 cents:  Their approach is an experimental technique without any efficacy literature to support it, and those who are doing the technique need to get their approach into the efficacy literature before we can actually start to tease out the underlying factors and mechanisms.

There are only semantic differences between SCP, infra-slow EEG and cortical DC field potential recordings, as they all are part of the same phenomenon.  

I&#039;d be happy to discuss the Othmer&#039;s work, but their outcomes have not been published in peer reviewed material to actually start to be able to really evaluate what their work actually is.  Their explanation of the effect has changed over time from a coherence phenomenon to phase shifts... they need to get their story illustrated with real outcome data and EEG recordings to identify the actual effect before teaching classes about it as though it is a standard approach in NF.  It is experimental.

The recent edition of NeuroConnections has a good discussion of the factors influencing the DC or infra-slow activity, and I&#039;d point you there for any current discussion bsed on actual EEG data and not just theory.

Once they actually get their material researched with data being published, then we will be able to discuss what it is they are doing.  Right now they teach theories about how it works, but the data doesn&#039;t support their conclusion, as the signals change due to coherence, power and phase changes when it is actually examined by Richard Souter with real data and not just a thought experiment.

I&#039;m fine with thought experiments when actual data collection is not feasible (like the train at the speed of light experiements by Einstein), but when we can easily collect real EEG data so easily for actual data analysis, thought experiments are inexcusable.

The slow activity could be skin contact shifting, electrode drift, thermal drift, amplifier drift, pulse artifact, respiratory artifact, eye movements, or even actual EEG activity... but until it is researched with appropriate designs to make efficacy claims, it is experimental and merely based on anecdote.

Good luck in your search!

Jay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>My 2 cents:  Their approach is an experimental technique without any efficacy literature to support it, and those who are doing the technique need to get their approach into the efficacy literature before we can actually start to tease out the underlying factors and mechanisms.</p>
<p>There are only semantic differences between SCP, infra-slow EEG and cortical DC field potential recordings, as they all are part of the same phenomenon.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d be happy to discuss the Othmer&#8217;s work, but their outcomes have not been published in peer reviewed material to actually start to be able to really evaluate what their work actually is.  Their explanation of the effect has changed over time from a coherence phenomenon to phase shifts&#8230; they need to get their story illustrated with real outcome data and EEG recordings to identify the actual effect before teaching classes about it as though it is a standard approach in NF.  It is experimental.</p>
<p>The recent edition of NeuroConnections has a good discussion of the factors influencing the DC or infra-slow activity, and I&#8217;d point you there for any current discussion bsed on actual EEG data and not just theory.</p>
<p>Once they actually get their material researched with data being published, then we will be able to discuss what it is they are doing.  Right now they teach theories about how it works, but the data doesn&#8217;t support their conclusion, as the signals change due to coherence, power and phase changes when it is actually examined by Richard Souter with real data and not just a thought experiment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m fine with thought experiments when actual data collection is not feasible (like the train at the speed of light experiements by Einstein), but when we can easily collect real EEG data so easily for actual data analysis, thought experiments are inexcusable.</p>
<p>The slow activity could be skin contact shifting, electrode drift, thermal drift, amplifier drift, pulse artifact, respiratory artifact, eye movements, or even actual EEG activity&#8230; but until it is researched with appropriate designs to make efficacy claims, it is experimental and merely based on anecdote.</p>
<p>Good luck in your search!</p>
<p>Jay</p>
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		<title>By: VanDeusen</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>VanDeusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 07:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Jay,
Thanks.  That reinforces and deepens whaat I had recalled.
I&#039;ve been hearing a great deal of late about the Othmer&#039;s infra-low frequency training but couldn&#039;t find much about it beyond the SCP work I&#039;ve heard you speak of previously--and that didn&#039;t seem to be about training in bands from 0-0.01 Hz.  A friend recently sent me the link to some work by Marcus Raichle at WU (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080930135309.htm ) which she clearly thought was about infra-low, but the more I read of the article, the more it sounded like SCP.  I&#039;ve tried to find anything about the infra-low stuff in Rhythms of the Brain and Neocortical Dynamics, but can&#039;t find anything I recognize in either.  What is your take on infra-low training as the Othmers are practicing it? 
Pete</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,<br />
Thanks.  That reinforces and deepens whaat I had recalled.<br />
I&#8217;ve been hearing a great deal of late about the Othmer&#8217;s infra-low frequency training but couldn&#8217;t find much about it beyond the SCP work I&#8217;ve heard you speak of previously&#8211;and that didn&#8217;t seem to be about training in bands from 0-0.01 Hz.  A friend recently sent me the link to some work by Marcus Raichle at WU (<a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080930135309.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080930135309.htm</a> ) which she clearly thought was about infra-low, but the more I read of the article, the more it sounded like SCP.  I&#8217;ve tried to find anything about the infra-low stuff in Rhythms of the Brain and Neocortical Dynamics, but can&#8217;t find anything I recognize in either.  What is your take on infra-low training as the Othmers are practicing it?<br />
Pete</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Gunkelman</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Gunkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Pete,

Gray matter damage decreases alpha initially, and also has beta and gamma decreases.  as the very neuroplastic gray m atter heals and is not re-engaged with function, the alpha will return and even be seen as an excess idling of the cortical area... until it is re-engaged in function, when the beta and gamma will return and the alpha will regain a normal dynamic, and no longer be in excess.

White matter damage increases slowing due to a decreased inhibition of the sheet dipoles due to the lack of (or decrease in) cortical input.

I hope this helps clarify the issue for you... let me know if you need a more in-depth answer.

Jay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>Gray matter damage decreases alpha initially, and also has beta and gamma decreases.  as the very neuroplastic gray m atter heals and is not re-engaged with function, the alpha will return and even be seen as an excess idling of the cortical area&#8230; until it is re-engaged in function, when the beta and gamma will return and the alpha will regain a normal dynamic, and no longer be in excess.</p>
<p>White matter damage increases slowing due to a decreased inhibition of the sheet dipoles due to the lack of (or decrease in) cortical input.</p>
<p>I hope this helps clarify the issue for you&#8230; let me know if you need a more in-depth answer.</p>
<p>Jay</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: VanDeusen</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>VanDeusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 00:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Jay, I recall having heard you speak of high alpha power secondary to head injury but can&#039;t recall if that is following gray or white-matter damage.  Does training to reduce it/increase beta help with cognitive function improvement.
Pete</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I recall having heard you speak of high alpha power secondary to head injury but can&#8217;t recall if that is following gray or white-matter damage.  Does training to reduce it/increase beta help with cognitive function improvement.<br />
Pete</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jay Gunkelman</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Gunkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 05:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-18</guid>
		<description>Dagmar,

It was good that you question the opinion of normalcy of &quot;14 and 6&quot;   but unless I see what you actually have recorded, I&#039;m not sure you actually have &quot;14 and 6 positive spikes&quot;  You report an atypical “14 and 7” and do not discuss the distribution ir polarity of the spike portion…. So I am not really confident what you have identified.

 I can’t comment on the specifics in your case due to this uncertainty… however, in general what Niedermayer is saying is that there is no specific pathology… no epilepsy, nop strokes, tumors, vascular lesions, demyelination, etc…

The importance of this difference in what “normal” means was the basis for the split in the field of EEG and the AES splinter group forming AMEEGA (now ECNS) by Gibbs and Gibbs, Duffy, Hughes and others.

The actual 14 and 6 is identified as a non-specific marker in behaviorally disordered children according to the Gibbs and Gibbs view… not a form of epilepsy, though that is a group in which it was originally seen as well…

I hope this note helps… even if I can’t comment on the case itself directly due to the lack of an EEG to review.

Jay</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dagmar,</p>
<p>It was good that you question the opinion of normalcy of &#8220;14 and 6&#8243;   but unless I see what you actually have recorded, I&#8217;m not sure you actually have &#8220;14 and 6 positive spikes&#8221;  You report an atypical “14 and 7” and do not discuss the distribution ir polarity of the spike portion…. So I am not really confident what you have identified.</p>
<p> I can’t comment on the specifics in your case due to this uncertainty… however, in general what Niedermayer is saying is that there is no specific pathology… no epilepsy, nop strokes, tumors, vascular lesions, demyelination, etc…</p>
<p>The importance of this difference in what “normal” means was the basis for the split in the field of EEG and the AES splinter group forming AMEEGA (now ECNS) by Gibbs and Gibbs, Duffy, Hughes and others.</p>
<p>The actual 14 and 6 is identified as a non-specific marker in behaviorally disordered children according to the Gibbs and Gibbs view… not a form of epilepsy, though that is a group in which it was originally seen as well…</p>
<p>I hope this note helps… even if I can’t comment on the case itself directly due to the lack of an EEG to review.</p>
<p>Jay</p>
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		<title>By: Dagmar Timmers</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Dagmar Timmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 14:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Jay, I have a young boy, age 15, who has a 7 hz and 14 hz pattern frontally, most dominant over central electrodes. Niedermeyer states that  this pattern is  a normal variant  in adolecents, but this boy does have attentional and emotional issues. Is this a normal variant, or just normal as in no epileptic form, but a faillure of the frontal cortex or singulate? Thanks! Dagmar Timmers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I have a young boy, age 15, who has a 7 hz and 14 hz pattern frontally, most dominant over central electrodes. Niedermeyer states that  this pattern is  a normal variant  in adolecents, but this boy does have attentional and emotional issues. Is this a normal variant, or just normal as in no epileptic form, but a faillure of the frontal cortex or singulate? Thanks! Dagmar Timmers.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jay Gunkelman</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Gunkelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Mu is an effect of a frontal lobe disturbance, commonly seen in ADHD as well as in PDD as a &quot;mirror Neuron&quot; system disturbance of the fronto-striatal-thalamo-motor regulatory loop.  Mu is seen when the loop is not engaged, and generally you will see a frontal lobe disturbance making this problem.

Commonly either a slow pattern, alpha excess, or a beta spindle... but the frontal lobe regulation of the motor strip will be compromised by whatever pattern it is, and often hypocoherence fronto-centrally (or Sterman&#039;s fronto-central disconnect) will be seen in the &quot;connectivity, though it is obviously not a cortical-cortical connection, but a cortical subcortical-cortical loop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mu is an effect of a frontal lobe disturbance, commonly seen in ADHD as well as in PDD as a &#8220;mirror Neuron&#8221; system disturbance of the fronto-striatal-thalamo-motor regulatory loop.  Mu is seen when the loop is not engaged, and generally you will see a frontal lobe disturbance making this problem.</p>
<p>Commonly either a slow pattern, alpha excess, or a beta spindle&#8230; but the frontal lobe regulation of the motor strip will be compromised by whatever pattern it is, and often hypocoherence fronto-centrally (or Sterman&#8217;s fronto-central disconnect) will be seen in the &#8220;connectivity, though it is obviously not a cortical-cortical connection, but a cortical subcortical-cortical loop.</p>
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		<title>By: VanDeusen</title>
		<link>http://qeegsupport.com/patterns-seen-in-the-qeeg-and-their-indicated-interventions/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>VanDeusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://qeegsupport.com/?p=125#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Jay, As you may recall, you reviewed my system of &quot;types&quot;, which I call brain activation patterns, several years ago.  Very helpful to me.  I am interested in a specific problem I&#039;ve seen recently that I&#039;m not sure how to fit into your system (or mine), though I recall having heard you speak of it in the past:  Clients who appear to have excessive alpha, especially which fails to block, that is actually probably the Mu rhythm.  So far training alpha down or beta up have had little effect. These do tend to show the low-empathy pattern suggested by mirror neuron work. I recall many years ago you indicated that Mu was related to extreme frontal slowing, and I seem to recall a more recent comment from you regarding training gamma to block Mu.  I&#039;d love to hear how you would fit this pattern into your phenotypes and, most especially, your recommended training approaches.  Thanks,  Pete</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, As you may recall, you reviewed my system of &#8220;types&#8221;, which I call brain activation patterns, several years ago.  Very helpful to me.  I am interested in a specific problem I&#8217;ve seen recently that I&#8217;m not sure how to fit into your system (or mine), though I recall having heard you speak of it in the past:  Clients who appear to have excessive alpha, especially which fails to block, that is actually probably the Mu rhythm.  So far training alpha down or beta up have had little effect. These do tend to show the low-empathy pattern suggested by mirror neuron work. I recall many years ago you indicated that Mu was related to extreme frontal slowing, and I seem to recall a more recent comment from you regarding training gamma to block Mu.  I&#8217;d love to hear how you would fit this pattern into your phenotypes and, most especially, your recommended training approaches.  Thanks,  Pete</p>
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